Parrying underpowered?

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Parrying underpowered?

Post  XionAstra on Thu May 08, 2008 10:32 am

Womble and I have been talking about how underpowered parry is compared with weapon skills.
Example: Average Swordsman (Al) vs. Parry centered Guardian (Fen)

Lets say both are first level. Al being average has a STR of 16 (+3 modifier), thus putting his Melee (w/o weapon) at 8 (this is also w/o bonuses and such from classes, so we'll assume Al is a merc for the moment). Al puts 4 points into his appropriate weapon skill, thus making his Melee (with weapon) 12.

Fen decides to aim for Paladin Ascension and so decides to base her character around parrying. Putting 18 in both DEX and PHY (+4 modifiers on both). Putting her DEF w/o armour at 18. She puts 6 points into Parry, adds the 4 DEX mod and the extra 2 bonus from Guardian class, giving a total parry of 12.

As you see, so far it is fine, though if she was up against a Fighter with 18 STR, the total on melee would be 18 (5 + 4[STR Mod] + 3[Fighter Melee bonus] + 4[ranks in random melee weapon] + 2[Fighter Misc bonus in melee weapon]).

Now lets see, the lowest non-fail roll our fighter can roll is 21, this means in most cases it will beat the defense of even the best 1st level guardian. The highest non-crit the Fighter can roll is 29.
Fen rolling for parry will get between 15 and 23 (assuming no crit, no fail). This means that unless the fighter fumbles, or rolls a 3-5 there is no chance of Fen parrying unless she crits the parry roll.

Now I know that pvp situations are rare, but sacrificing your action each round just to be hit every time by that darn Fighter gets annoying real quickly.
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So how is this going to be fixed? I know that you can't expect to parry every blow that comes your way, but in that situation unless one extreeme or the other occurs Parrying is useless, thus making Counter even moreso.
It only gets worse from there as mundane skills will only ever be 2 ranks ahead of weapon skills, there are caps for how high Attributes can go, but no limit on Melee/Ranged.
So as the characters get to higher levels the uselessness of parry will only increase as enemies will start being able to hit more and more.

Making going into parry stance a free action so you can attack and parry on the same turn might be good, but doesn't solve how useless it will end up being.
Making parry a combat skill, and thus basing it off melee could work somewhat, though it would impact the usefulness of DEX as it will now only affect Defense. Technically we could have it use melee, but using DEX mod instead of STR like normal melee (this is different from using ranged as adding to melee will also add to parry).
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XionAstra
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Re: Parrying underpowered?

Post  Aidan on Sat May 10, 2008 7:54 am

I'm going to take a long while thinking about this one. It will be fixed by the next release rest assured.

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Re: Parrying underpowered?

Post  XionAstra on Sat May 10, 2008 3:38 pm

The toughest part is making it so that a decent/maxed out parry user still has a decent chance of parrying an attack from a maxed out fighter-type, but not making it so easy for them to parry everything that comes way that you have to constantly pit a party against bosses just to challenge them when combat is concerned.

Also, parrying is only useful if at least one enemy focuses on the character. More intelligent enemies will see a character go into parry stance and thus focus on a different person, or resort to special abilities/magic instead, making parry a turnwaster if nothing tries to hit them in melee.

Maybe with enough parry ranks a character could sacrifice their action to go into parry and if no parryable actions were made at the character they could launch an attack or free action at the end of the round, not magic though as that requires too much time to tack onto end of the round, and using but failing fastcast would drag the action into the next round (it already effectively being initiative 0).
This would at least make parry somewhat useful to take in larger groups where someone won't always be attacked every round, but doesn't want to risk being left defenceless.

In the end it is up to Aidan to work out how to fix it. On that note if parry becomes a combat skill will counter still be needed, as counter was reliant on the character having parry as well.

The only other skill that is reliant on a different one is ESP, being reliant on the character's total perception and that could just be handled by making a special ability that allows characters to 'see' the abnormal, or by merging the skills and having the DC to sense magical/abnormal stuff be higher than to sense normal stuff, with modifiers based on class, example: a mage-type would understand the workings of magic better and thus would likely get a bonus to sense magic, characters that have lost a sense or 2 may not pe able to detect normal stuff so easily, but would likely be able to sense (in some way or another) when something weird is about (mind's eye, sharpening of remaining senses and such stuff).

Though this isn't a topic for talking about Perception and ESP skills, so I'll leave it at that.
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